Question:
Hello everyone,
I'm not sure if this should be posted here, under the law section, the expedited trucking section, or somewhere else, so please bear with me. -->
I'm a newbie and in the process of starting up a specialized OTR owner/operator business. I'm using a Chevy conversion van as a sleeper and a 14' cargo trailer, not a semi. My business is delivering pinball machines and other gameroom items for individual collectors of such items. Most of these are long distance deliveries, i.e. state to state, not local.
I'm having trouble finding good sources of information regarding how the various laws apply to me. My understanding is that because I'm so light (under 10,000 GCVW), and not hauling hazmat I don't even need a CDL. But I'm having a lot more trouble finding out things like do I need to keep a log, do I need to weigh, do HOS laws apply to me, insurance, etc. Currently the van and trailer are both registered and insured to me personally, (i.e. not as a commercial vehicle), and I suppose together they look like a typical rig that a retired couple would be driving back and forth to Florida with all their yard sale finds in the back. --> So, I could probably get away with just ignoring regulations and not raise the suspicion of any enforcement officers anyway, but I'd rather do things the right way, especially since it looks like this is going to be a full-time occupation for me.
Any comments, thoughts, or what not would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Answer:
I think I would put it in the expedited forum if there is one. I also know of another good place to ask. Email me if you want the link
-->
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Answer:
but otherwise I believe that if your vehicle (or vehicle combo) is under the weight limits for a CDL then you wont need one. Just be sure to have the proper liscense class needed for what ever weight you will be hauling.
If your vehicle (as in the total combonation)weighs under 10,000 lbs GVWR then you will not have to worry about log books or any of that other good stuff. As far as weighing goes. That is going to depend on the individual states you travel in. Some states will trucks over 4 tons must weigh, others will say all commercial vehicles must weigh.
As far as insurance goes though. You will need to be insured for the type of work that you are doing. If you are simply insured for private use of the equipment and end up in an accident while doing commercial work you could find your insurance carrier not covering you at all. This should be discussed with your insurance carrier.
Now like I said at the start. I think this is the way it is but I am not entirely 100 % sure on all of it.
Trucking 101
Insurance Forum
Expediters Forum
These three would probably be the best to help you sort through your various questions.
I will always be a mutter trucker at heart.
_________________
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
"Nichols' Fourth Law says, "Avoid any action with an unacceptable outcome"

Answer:
I doubt a conversion van and 14' box trailer has a Combination Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of 10,000 pounds or less. I would guestimate the 14' trailer has 2 axles rated at 5,000 pounds each for a total GVWR of 10,000 pounds and the conversion van has a GVWR of 6,500 pounds making the CGVWR 16,500 pounds.
I just posted a bit about this in the expediter's forum, but the trailer is 2 axles rated at 3,500 pounds each, for a total GVWR of 7,000, according to the manufacturer. Interestingly however, when I registered this trailer here in Michigan, I asked them about this and they said they "don't go by that", they were only interested in the curb weight (which is 2,200 pounds.) they said they don't use a declared GVWR for trailers of this size. Go figure. So the trailer registration simply says "2,200 pounds", no GVWR. I will never have more than 3000 pounds in it (since that's all that will physically fit in it), so the actual weight of the loaded trailer will never be above about 5,200 pounds (and will probably be significantly less than that most of the time.)
The van, since it is considered a passenger vehicle and not a cargo/panel van, doesn't have a declared GVWR either. The door post label doesn't even show one. It does show a front and rear axle gross weight of 3400 pound each, so the GVWR for the van would have to be less than 6,800, probably quite a bit less, based on my experience with similar vans (I think my ford was 5,000 pounds GVWR.) Michigan actually considers this a "station wagon" even though it's a full sized van, because it is set up only for passengers, and not for cargo. (It's one of those vans that's all carpeted and padded inside, with big windows, curtains and a fold down rear seat and such.) So I still think I'll be under 10,000 pounds actual weight at all times, with some margin to spare.
Of course, I have no idea if any of that makes any difference. If all that the DOT cares about is what the vehicle is capable of weighting fully loaded according to the manufactuer, then yes, it would probably be over 10,000 GCVW (probably closer to 12,000 pounds than 16,000 though, I would think.) Michigan's DMV certainly doesn't seem to look at it that way though.
You now need to have a US DOT Number, have your vehicle properly marked with your company name and US DOT number, your vehicle must meet the equipment standards of Part 393, a driver's daily log, annual inspection, daily vehicle inspection report, medical examiner's certificate, and driver qualification file.
Thanks for the link you provided. It looks like a lot of the information I am looking for is probably available there, so I'm going to start reading through it! That's exactly the sort of resource I was looking for, thanks.
- Jeff

Answer:
Jeff, I do this on a daily basis and regardless of what the registration is the GVWR is based on the manufacturer's rating. Therefore, you have a Commercial Motor Vehicle as defined by the FMCSR. You state:
I just posted a bit about this in the expediter's forum, but the trailer is 2 axles rated at 3,500 pounds each, for a total GVWR of 7,000, according to the manufacturer.
It does show a front and rear axle gross weight of 3400 pound each, so the GVWR for the van would have to be less than 6,800,
Actually the van would have a GVWR of 6,800 3,400 + 3,400 = 6,800.
So you have a CGVWR of 13,800 7,000 + 6,800 = 13,800.
§ 390.5 Definitions.
Unless specifically defined elsewhere, in this subchapter:
Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle --
(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.
Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination (articulated) motor vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, GCWR will be determined by adding the GVWR of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit and any load thereon.
Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single motor vehicle.
While my guesstimate may have been off by a couple of thousand pounds, my statement that the combination exceeded the 10,000-pound mark was right on. I have visited with local plumbers that register their truck and trailer below the manufacturer's specified GVWR and placed drivers OOS for no CDL when research revealed the combination required a CDL. In your case, no CDL is required. However, all of the other items are required.
Be safe.
John Q.
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
_________________
John Q.
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
"Nichols' Fourth Law says, "Avoid any action with an unacceptable outcome"

Answer:
Originally posted by John Q. Public:
regardless of what the registration is the GVWR is based on the manufacturer's rating. Therefore, you have a _C_ommercial _M_otor _V_ehicle as defined by the FMCSR.
Thanks, that helps to clarify things for me!
Actually the van would have a GVWR of 6,800 3,400 + 3,400 = 6,800. So you have a CGVWR of 13,800 7,000 + 6,800 = 13,800.
I still think the GVWR of the van may be a bit less (based on the owners manual to my last van, which said the GVWR was less than the GAWR+GAWR), but it's a moot point, because the CGVWR would still be above 10,000, probably right around 12,000. (Darn, so close.) ;-)
While my guesstimate may have been off by a couple of thousand pounds, my statement that the combination exceeded the 10,000-pound mark was right on.
If it's based on manufactuer's rating rather than the registration (and I take your word for it that it is), then yes, I agree now. That's unfortunate, since it's not over 10,000 by much (and my actual weight will never be over 10,000), but such is life. :-(
In your case, no CDL is required. However, all of the other items are required.
Thanks, that helps out a lot. Someone in the expediter's forum said that I would need a CDL, because the vehicle is articulated, but based on what I've found on the FMCSA web site thus far (and what you've said), I don't think that's accuurate. Would you agree?

Answer:
Several Parts of the FMCSR have a separate set of definitions. Part 382, 383, 390, 395, and 396 come to mind. According to Part 383, Commercial Driver's License, a CMV is:
§ 383.5 Definitions.
As used in this part:
Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle --
(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or
(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or
(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.
So unless you transport placarded quantities of hazardous materials no CDL is required.
John Q.
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
_________________
John Q.
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
"Nichols' Fourth Law says, "Avoid any action with an unacceptable outcome"

Answer:
We have a tire delivery guy out here that covers oklahoma kansas and texas he drives a ford F250 with a flatbed car type trailer and he got nailed in kansas for not carrying a log book. so ya might want to check into that he said they told him it was because he was involved with interstate commerce

Answer:
John,
Thanks again for the references and advice, they have really been helpful.
I've spent a considerable amount of time reading through the regulations on the FMCSA site tonight, and most of it is starting to make sense to me now.
I have a couple of quick questions about the things you said I would need, if you don't mind me taking a few more minutes of your time:
You now need to have a US DOT Number
Do you know (approximately) how long it takes to get a number issued, once the application is submitted? Also, looking at the on-line application, it appears that I will also need to obtain an MC number, as well as a USDOT number, and that there is a $300.00 fee for this. Does that sound correct?
have your vehicle properly marked with your company name and US DOT number, your vehicle must meet the equipment standards of Part 393, a driver's daily log, annual inspection
None of this looks like it will be a problem for me, after reading through the relevant sections. Even though I didn't think I was going to be subject to these regulations, I already had my vehicle up to the standards described in that section before looking at it, and I even have all of the specified saftey equipment in it already.
daily vehicle inspection report
396.11(d) seems to imply that I would not need to do this: "Exceptions. The rules in this section shall not apply to [...] or any motor carrier operating only one commercial motor vehicle." I do not see a definition of "commercial motor vehicle" in 396, but the definition under 390 (general) seems to imply that a van/trailer combination would be considered "one commercial motor vehicle". Is this correct?
medical examiner's certificate, and driver qualification file.
Again, I don't see any problems there.
None of this sounds too horrible to me. I guess one big thing for me will be finding out how much insurance to meet 387.9 will cost. Hopefully it won't be so prohibitively expensive as to make this whole business idea a no-go. I know insurance of any variety isn't cheap these days. -->

Answer:
Do you know (approximately) how long it takes to get a number issued, once the application is submitted? Also, looking at the on-line application, it appears that I will also need to obtain an MC number, as well as a USDOT number, and that there is a $300.00 fee for this. Does that sound correct?
If you fill out the application on-line, I believe you receive the number then. If not you should get the number via snail mail within two to three weeks. If you only transport your own property, you do not need a MC number. The MC number is for for-hire motor carriers. My understanding was you transport items you sell on Ebay. However, after reading your post a second time I’m not sure. Does the collector of the pin-ball machines pay you to transport their machine from the seller to their home? If so then yes you are required to have a MC number. You will be required to obtain a minimum of $750,000 in liability insurance, see Part 387 for details.
396.11(d) seems to imply that I would not need to do this: "Exceptions. The rules in this section shall not apply to [...] or any motor carrier operating only one commercial motor vehicle." I do not see a definition of "commercial motor vehicle" in 396, but the definition under 390 (general) seems to imply that a van/trailer combination would be considered "one commercial motor vehicle". Is this correct?
Yes, no DVIR is required for a company with one vehicle. Unless you go into Ontario Canada, Ontario is big on DVIR’s being carried in the vehicle. I’m not sure if Ontario has an exemption for single vehicle operations. However, since the inspector at the roadside has no idea how big a carrier’s fleet maybe I don’t see an exemption for the DVIR in Ontario.
John Q.
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
_________________
John Q.
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
"Nichols' Fourth Law says, "Avoid any action with an unacceptable outcome"

Answer:
The MC number is for for-hire motor carriers. My understanding was you transport items you sell on Ebay. However, after reading your post a second time I’m not sure. Does the collector of the pin-ball machines pay you to transport their machine from the seller to their home? If so then yes you are required to have a MC number. You will be required to obtain a minimum of $750,000 in liability insurance, see Part 387 for details.
Correct, I just move them for people, I don't normally sell them myself. They buy them from someone on eBay, at a game show, through a newspaper ad, or wherver else, and then hire me to go pick them up and bring them to them.
Sorry for not being clearer about that!
Yes, no DVIR is required for a company with one vehicle. Unless you go into Ontario Canada
This is complicated enough already... I think I'll stay out of Canada. -->
So to summarize everything...
To get started I need:

• A USDOT Number
  (free - form MCS-150 & MCS-150A)
  
• A Motor Common Carrier authority number
  ($300 - form OP-1)
  
• A Process Agent
  (form BOC-3, probably $35 - $100 fee to agent)
  
• A copy of 49 CFR 40 & 300-399 to keep in my vehicle
  
• Required saftety equipment in my vehicle
  (I already have this)
  

Plus every year I also need to renew:

• SSRS Registration
  (About $250.00 in total for the states I want to cover)
  
• Michigan MPSC Decal
  (because I'm based in Michigan - $100)
  
• $750,000 liability insurance
  
• $10,000 cargo insurance
  
• Medical exam/drug test
  

On a daily basis I need to:

• Keep a driver's log
  
• Conform to HOS laws, etc.,
  

But I DON'T need:

• CDL
  (because I'm under 26,000 pounds)
  
• IRP plates
  (because I'm under 26,000 pounds)
  
• IFTA sticker or fuel tax returns
  (because I'm under 26,000 pounds)
  
• Driver vehicle inspection reports
  (because I'm a business with only one vehicle)
  

Whew! That was a lot of research and analysis for two days, but I think I've got everything covered now... hopefully.
- Jeff
[This message was edited by xenium on January 12, 2004 at 22:26.]

Answer:
Part 382 random, post-accident, pre-employment, reasonable suspicion and follow-up testing does not apply, as you do not meet the definition of a CMV per Part 382.107.
However, drug and alcohol prohibition as described in Part 392 does apply.
Nice job on the research.
The BOC-3 is a list of process agents in each state where a subpoena can be served.
Your insurance company will need to file a 91X to show you have the necessary level of financial responsibility.
If you register as a contract carrier, you will not be required to establish a list of tariff rates. If you register as a common carrier you are required to establish a list of tariffs.
I recommend registering as a contract carrier. However, it's your choice.
Be safe.
John Q.
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
_________________
John Q.
"If men were angels...No government would be necessary."
51st Federalist Papers
"Nichols' Fourth Law says, "Avoid any action with an unacceptable outcome"