Question:
I know I can hit the search button and find a lot of posts on paperless logs. But I don't know if I can find an answer to my specific questions. With a paperless log system, is it possible to cheat? Is it easy to cheat? If the system is any good, how come Werner is the only company that uses it? If it is hard to cheat on this system, how come the government doesn't make everyone use it? Does Werner have a patent on this technology? When it expires, will everyone useit?

Answer:
The Werner Paperless log was designed in such a way as to allow drivers to cheat. The Werner drivers will show how that is done.
There are limits on how far you can cheat on the paperless system but you'll learn the ropes.
Werner drivers are not going to tell you how to cheat with their system on the internet, but in person, one on one, they'll show you how to do creative logging Werner style.

Answer:
"Creative logging"... I love it!
de KJ5KX

Answer:
dak1 thinks there's a conspiracy to keep it a secret. We should be so clever!
No, you can't really "cheat" more than about 6 minutes (maximum) everytime you stop. The system was altered this last July to eliminate some of the more flagarent opportunities to cheat it once gave us.
Now, the system checks the change of driving status you put on the QualComm by measuring the movement of the truck. It does this by monitoring GPS satellite tracking AND the truck's odometer readings.
In brief:
If you're stopped, you can start driving or moving the truck at 7 minutes after the quarter-hour, and the system will round your change of duty status to the next quarter hour. This gives you about 6 extra minutes of driving time.
I doubt this minor opportunity to "cheat" will be eliminated, since it's exactly the same way you'd log it on paper. Change of duty is rounded to the nearest quarter hour. And 6 minutes or less hardly makes it worthwhile to go to the trouble of timing your departure from a customer or truckstop so precisely.
You can play the same rounding trick when you stop driving -- if you're lucky enough to reach your destination during the first 6 minutes of a quarter hour. If you send your change of duty off line-3 too early, the combination of GPS and odometer readings will overide your message and keep you on line-3. If you stop driving at 12:06, it rounds to 12:00.
In addition -- you can't round both ends of non-driving time to your advantage. It'll let you round 6 minutes on one end or the other of a 30 minute break (for example) but not both, since the rounding would total more than 6 minutes for the stop.
Other than rounding the quarter hour, you can't roll the truck without the computer logging you on line-3. Period. Even if you just drive around the block over and over and make no substancial change in your GPS position, your advancing odometer reading will cause the computer to charge you driving time.
Any wild stories Werner drivers tell you to the contrary are just that -- wild stories. The only other way to cheat your driving time is to disconnect the QualComm or block it's view of the sky.
Disconnecting it is immediately detected by the system and the safety dept.
Blocking it's view of the sky leaves a big 'hole' in your plotted truck movement, and the computer will fill the hole by "modeling" likely driving time and log you accordingly -- as it does on some roads with long stretches where it can't see the satellite, like I-84 through the east end of the Dalles in OR. If the logging you send on the QualComm doesn't make sense, the system will put you on line-3.
So: Although the original paperless logging system let you cheat a LITTLE on your driving time a few years ago, the loop-holes were basically eliminated when the system was up-graded last July. This is the final year of the paperless logging "pilot program" with FMCSA. Needless to say, with 8,000 Werner drivers out here trying every trick in the book to see what they can get away with, there's been plenty of opportunity to study and refine the system to eliminate the program glitches it once had. Trust me -- if there were any other ways to cheat driving time, we would have found them. They're long gone. The thing does what it's supposed to do -- log driving time as it happens.
Line-4 time: This is a little harder to enforce. We're still charged a mandatory, automatic 15 minutes everytime we fuel, load, unload or drop a trailer. It also charges an automatic 15 minutes for a daily pre-trip. The driver has the opportunity to increase this time (unloading for example) to match actual work performed, but I suspect most drivers just log the minimum. And except for loading or unloading, 15 minutes is about right for everything else anyway.
(line-4 time for fueling is triggered by the actual time we use our fuel card, so we can't fuel on an 8hr break without going on line-4)
So.....the only thing you can really cheat at is line-4 dock time -- the same cheating that runs rampant in the industry and is virtually impossible to eliminate since there's no way to monitor what the driver's doing when the truck's stopped at a customer. Even so, the system's automatic 15 minute line-4 time means we probably log a more of this time than many paper logging drivers.
Again, anyone who tells you wild stories about substancial ways to cheat with THE CURRENT VERSION of Werner/QualComm paperless logging is blowing smoke up your ***. (Gee....would a truck driver really tell a lie??)
(note: Werner relinquished the paperless-log program rights to Qualcomm in exchange for discounted airtime. The pilot program with FMCSA expires this summer, at which time it's supposed to become "permanent" so QualComm can offer it to other carriers.)
.
[This message was edited by Shuffler on December 18, 2002 at 02:48.]

Answer:
The Paperless Log System will ultimately be mandated for all OTR operations.
There is a fudge factor, but nothing like what can be done with a looseleaf logbook.
Part of the problem is similar, believe it or not, to the enforcement of laws regarding illegal alien workers. Everyone is publicly in favor of stopping illegals from working--but when La Migra really tries to enforce the law, all the employers start screaming like stuck pigs.
"We can't exist without illegal migrant workers."
Actually they just couldn't get away with crap pay and working conditions if they were forced to hire only U.S. citizens or legal migrants.
It's the same with trucking. Legal (mostly) logging would put a helluva hit on many wallets.
Illegals workers know they are getting the shaft, but it's better than nothing. Truckers know the same thing.
May you be well and happy!

Answer:
I stand corrected on the current Werner system. I didn't know they Changed (corrected) it.
I know a lot of Werner drivers wouldn't talk about the, now, older system pubicly.
A number of other big carriers are looking into this system. They want a level playing field across the board in the trucking industry.
They also know, many smaller fleets would have one hell of a time with a paperless logging system in moving freight.
Even as big as Werner is they had trouble setting up relays, smaller companies cannot run relays or repower loads, they don't have the equipment availability.
There are pro's and con's about running computerized logging software systems like Werners.
I know if such a system became manditory, there would have to be some big adjustments in the tanker food grade industry and the way it currently operates. Many Reefer operations would be impacted as well. I think you'll see more team driving operations with many carriers.

Answer:
dak1,
Good point. I think that's probably why our refer division (TCU) shrunk to only a couple hundred trucks. We just couldn't compete for brokered, multi-stop loads running legal logs. Our refer division is now mostly large, dedicated lane acounts (Kraft, Jimmy Dean Sausage, etc) where the loads fit legal running.
If you believe in conspiracy theories, here's one:
FMCSA/DOT loves this system (now that's it's refined) because it not only enforces HOS letter and spirit, but because DOT can audit an entire company - every truck - with just a few computer programs instead of hundreds of man-hours pouring over paper logs to just get a sample.
The carriers see their participation as creating a critical mass that DOT can eventually use to justify madating paperless (black box) logging with smaller carriers. This will put more small carriers and independents out of business, which creates more growth opportunity for the majors. (the majors love growth -- that's what fuels their stock and profits, etc)
Customers that require delivery schedules that don't conform to running legal will eventually have to adjust their operations to accomodate HOS regulations.
So the major carriers and their stock holders, and DOT, all benefit by going QualCom paperless. The losers, of course, are the smaller haulers and independents -- exactly the folks both the DOT and majors want to put out of business anyway.
QualComm has positioned themselves to be the premier supplier of paperless logging service, having helped design and refine their program with Werner these last few years -- a program that's about to be fully authorized by FMCSA next year. Any other system would have to be designed and tested for years (like we did) before FMCSA would finally approve it, and it would probably have to use the QualComm satellite network anyway.
Like it or not, the dreaded "black box" is here, and it will dramatically change the trucking business (in may ways) the next few years. But I don't think it will necessarily raise customer's shipping costs, since the slow change-over to legal logging will give them time to adjust their own operations. More teams? Maybe. But by swapping and relaying loads, you can still keep that load moving faster than a single driver that takes it all the way to it's destination......if you have enough power units and trailers to mix and match loads. Once again, the majors are well-suited to do this -- the smaller carriers aren't. Government, enforcement and the major carriers see a win/win in going paperless.
[This message was edited by Shuffler on December 18, 2002 at 12:10.]

Answer:
Shuffler,
I drove for Werner under the older paperless logs and really did not have a problem with them. There was one trip that I really never understood though.
I was trying to get out of LA on a Friday afternoon. I know its stupid, but I was really new at it then. I got stuck in traffic and it took several hours of stop and go to get to Victorville. The computer only charged me with 2 hours of driving time.
I can only imagine how some creative paper logs would look, but how does the new paperless log system work on excessive traffic delays?
Another example would be parked on an interstate for 90 minutes while an accident is cleared?
Thanks!!

Answer:
Notice they have already turned the screw a little tighter and once they get control of driving time,they will go after non driving time.
Yes the DOT is going to sit back now and wait untill the carriers jump on it and than require all time spent at shippers/receivers to count as line 4 time,untill you send the empty message from something like a half hour before your appointment time and than after the empty message is sent you will still be on line 4 while waiting to be dispatched,unless your releived of duty for a long enough time span to rest.
"One of the driver's chief violations was falsifying logs to show he spent fewer hours on the road than he actually spent. The falsification came to light when discrepancies were discovered between the paper records the driver kept and computer records that his truck electronically recorded"
http://www.lawyersweeklyusa.com/resources/pressrelease/pressrelease0921.htm
Notice that Prime just settled without a trail,because they couldn't even start to defend their driver.This is the main reason Werner is using the system,so they can defend the company in lawsuits,they can show a jury they are using the lattest technoligy available to control their trucks.
Don't worship a false prophet.The only true savior is James Hoffa Jr,the son of GOD.
Answer:
It is easy to be cheated or too cheat, either
way..
Onramp does it in on the Ice, slush and snow..

Answer:
Shuffler, That wasn't a conspiracy theory at all.
When CW Werner volunteered for that pilot program years ago, he stated a level playing field as a reason for his involvement. Inculding Werners freight expansion. He didn't realize at the time, this system would not be adopted much sooner as manditory in the trucking business.
He gambled on a quicker nationwide manditory system, that didn't happen. I too was surpised it didn't happen. The DOT is/was under a lot of pressure not to impliment the Black Box system nationwide.
There was never a question whether a black box system would drive some out of business. You tie in the new proposed HOS rules and a black box that spells doom for many. Carriers said they don't have the equipment to follow those rules. That was why the new HOS rules and black box issue was put on the back burner.
As far a comparing other carriers manual logging practices to Werners logs and the DOT can easily see a hugh patern of running trucks illegaly nationwide with all the other carriers. Including JB Hunt, Swift, Covenant, Crete, SNI, etc. Their operating illegally and everyone knows it. These carriers tell their drivers to log MPH on their logs, their running an illegal operation. The DOT knows it but the DOT lets it slid, it's a big freebie.
That puts Werner under an unlevel playig field. As it stands now, it's Werner against the rest of the industry and he's out numbered by hundreds of thousands of other carriers.
I don't know what the DOT is going to do, I don't think they know either. There is a lot of talk but the DOT just might get their hands tied with Congress once again. I think the DOT is going to loose on this issue and keep giving lip service while pushing the issue further and further on the back burner. It amounts to corporate America against the DOT, corporate America literally runs and owns the Democtratic, Republician parties and Congress lock stock and barrel. Corporations run a monopoly on the American political system.
If all the big carriers, the ATA, insurance industry lobby heavily in support with $$$$ in campaign funding on the new HOS rules and black box issue, it may be enough to push foward. But if shippers for large corporations put up a big lobby fight with more $$$$ in campaign funding against it, well, lobby money in campaign funding tends to rule. I'm not even going to get into the Unions and NAFTA, Canada/Mexico on this.
I've noticed groups like CRASH and PAT have been publicly very quiet this past year or two.
I agree, with that computerized program, you can zip through thousands of logs at the push of the mouse button. You can also set it up to use that program to help isolate unproductive running lanes and time schedules.

Answer:
dak, I agree with you that Werner was attempting to level the playing field, but they also saw the opportunity to "HELP" the DOT determine the "PROPER" way to use the new technology.
Werner has already worked out the bugs and problems that other carriers will have to address when this system, or one like it, is finally mandated by DOT. They are counting on using that as a competitive advantage.
Shuffler, wasn't there another company or two that were participating in the paperless log pilot program?
I was also hoping you would address how you as a trainer log your time spent in the passenger seat with a newbie driving. Does the company provide any guidelines on how much time a trainer needs to log on line 4? How is that done with the paperless log?


Answer:
Shuffler, wasn't there another company or two that were participating in the paperless log pilot program?
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I was reading either the DOT or FMCSA web site years ago when Werner signed up for the pilot program.
They wrote an article on the web site saying Werner was the only company in the U.S. that actually wrote or submited written interest in the pilot program. The only one.
I also read through the written comments sent in on the new HOS rules on their web site. You talk about being funny, most of the letters were sad in a very funny way.
Unbelievable spelling errors, not to mention bad grammar, off topic issues, and some of these letters were written by Company Executives with Company letter heads on the letter. I'm not the best at good spelling practices but dam you had to see and read those letters. No wonder the DOT/FMCSA doesn't have any respect for the trucking industry. Reading through those letters made me laugh.

Answer:
dak1:Reading through those letters made me laugh.
I can use a good laugh...Where can we find those letters?(do you have a Link?)

Answer:
I dought those comments (letters) are still listed on the web site. It was several years ago when the new HOS rules were first proposed. You'll have to look through the docket #'s. It was either on the DOT web site or the FMCSA web site.
That's where I read the information on Werner's HOS pilot program too.
There is a lot information on upcoming rules and they ask for public comments. That's where you'll find what others think about the upcoming rules and any changes.
Even comments on the sleep study they did years ago.
I found it, it's on the DOT site, click links.
They made changes to their site from the old site. Anytime the DOT seeks comments to the Federal register, this is where you can send in yours or read comments sent in. It helps if you have the docket #, you can search by #. I don't have those docket #'s, I got the #'s years ago, I think from a Trucknet post. This site covers trucking, air, marine, etc. Another thing, you have to download everything now, the old web site, you didn't, you could read the comments right on the site.
http://dms.dot.gov/reports/fr.htm
http://dms.dot.gov/reports/topdock_rpt.htm
[This message was edited by dak1 on December 20, 2002 at 11:25.]