Question:
I seems like a lot of drivers I've met along the way these last years -- the drivers I like and probably respect the most as competant drivers -- cut their teeth with one of the big carriers. Schneider, Swift, US, Werner...
I can't tell you the number of drivers who've striked-up a cb conversation who say, "I started with Werner" or "I started with Swift". They're driving the nice trucks, good jobs...and usually seem pretty content and "together".
Of course, they were ambitious and eventually ventured away from the relative security of the bigger company they started with.
But what they took with them -- some of them at least -- is the discipline and professional ethic they had to work under at the big carrier. They were exposed to a wide variety of safety training and theory, and had to perform productively to get along. There was no one to bs and talk into letting them just slip by. They were held to very high service standards. with a low threshold for preventables/
Of course, there are many other ways to get into the business - smaller companys all the way down to mon and pop outfits with just a few trucks. And some of these may be good places to build well-rounded skills and discipline. But some only want you to hold the wheel and do their particular little specialty. The safety training is narrow and suffers from usually one guy who calls the shots -- rather than a corporate "committee" that's constantly churning a variety of ideas and approaches.
The big "mega-carrier" entry level companys are difficult to work for, and only treat you like a number -- if that sometimes. But you're exposed to a wide variety of knowledge and opinions and interpretations and approaches. A good learner -- someone who wants to do learn the craft well -- will probably find a much more stimulating and progressive set of influences at one of the big corporate training machines than a smaller outfit.
There are exceptiions of course -- a few truly well-run smaller outfits that can train you right and give you a broad set of skills. But don't believe the large carriers can't be excellent places to get your feet wet. Once you've been a successful "number" at one of these big outfits, you've developed the skills - driving, time management, safety... - from a demanding environment.

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Interesting point and very well written.
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Translation: Since I work for Werner, these guys are the most like me
.
Translation: They tired of being treated like a piece of crap and working for peanuts.

Translation: They learned to swallow crap without murdering anyone

Translation: The place was a clusterfook

Translation: They learned to do what they were told

Translation: No one listened to a word they had to say

Translation: They were treated as an expendable component in a large, inefficient machine

Translation: There are places where you’re seen, and treated, as a member of the human race

Translation: People actually know what they’re doing

Translation: Some have the same qualities as the big companies

Translation: Safety training is pertinent to what they do and you can talk to the Safety Director who is a human being, just like you

Translation: No one in management is held responsible for their decisions, regardless of how asinine they might be

Translation: As a driver, you’re ‘meat in the seat’; nothing more

Translation: Nobody knows what they’re doing.

Translation: A person who is willingly to accept lots of nonsense without pointing out to the “instructor” that he/she/it is wrong

Translation: Anyone who believes that driving a truck is a step-up from being a burger flipper

Translation: Will be exposed to more nonsense than any normal human being can stomach

Translation: You’ll be pizzed on and pizzed off more than you can believe possible

Translation: Once you’ve erased your own ability to think

Translation: driving, eating crap dished out by incompetent management trainees, how to bypass safety regulations

Translation: from a group of fools who see you as an even bigger fool

Answer:
Phil, you did a great job of breaking it down to the truth of the matter.
It is unbelievable that some one would want to push the Big training companies as a great place to start and learn the ropes. You learn very little with them except how to do what your told and not question it. They give you a load and you keep your mouth shut and do it. They make you wait for a load you keep your mouth shut and wait. Your simply not a person with the big companies. Your a number that equates to a piece of equipment. Equipment doesn't talk back and it doesn't ask questions. It simply does what it's told. If your able to gain some terrific skills with the big companies I don't know what they are. It's hard to learn any thing when your not suppose to think.
I've driven for some big companies and a driver means nothing to them. You do what your told. When you start to question it because your loosing time and money they begin to view you with contempt. Then you make their crap list and they will starve you out. They don't want thinkers. Smaller companies are more dependant on the individual drivers and want a little more than just a machine behind the wheel. Many view you as part of their company and a valuable resource. Of course non want a biltcher in the seat but some allow you to think and be active in the profitability of their truck.
Of course anyone driving will meet alot of ex Swift and Werner drivers. Recruiters meet alot of them also. They put thousands through their training courses every year. Thousands leave the business and some move on to better jobs. The numbers they loose are staggering and unbelievable. If there was a true value in the big companies there would be alot less need for new drivers and the recruiting adds would be far and few between. Most people will not put up with being treated sub-human very long so they have to recruit and recruit to keep their trucks running.
You have to learn some things to be sucessful as a driver. learning to shut up and do what your told isn't one of them.

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But they pay less than a first-year Werner/Swift/Schneidr (etc) driver and offer no health, dental, vision, 401k.....?
Ok -- let's say they do consider you a great guy and all that. You're still restricted to their narrow vision and their knowledge while you're building your initial habits and skills.
What some who haven't worked for these large carriers don't realize is: You can't just do "what you're told". Those who take that literally will bonb-out pretty fast. You have to navigate between what they tell you and what gets the job done legally and safely and on-time. For example, it's against company policy for drivers to change appointments with customers -- but the better drivers do it all the time to speed-up delivery and increase their productivity.
/When confronted with a hang-up at a customer, does the driver get in there and try to solve the problem, or do they sit back and complain on the QualComm?
These stereotypes of mega-carrier drivers are pretty funny. You'll certainly find some drivers who fit it, but they're the ones who jump to a new job every year and never find their niche in the industry -- until they land at a company that flatters them with praise and the "we are family" bullsiht, but doesn't expect too much and offers low pay and no benefits to prove it.
I'm not saying it's necessarily better to go one way or the other with your first job. Just that with all this negative critique of the big carriers -- of which I've contributed a lot of complaints and dissatification over the years, there's also a "case" for looking beyond your first job and hanging-out where the rubber meets the road and freight gets delivered in a variety of challenging situations. Your first job is your education -- not your final destination.
I mean -- Stuffs' and Phil's opinion of entry-level carriers? What do they know about working inside an entry-level carrier?

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Since most newbies will have to go with a large carrier anyway they should atleast pick some of the better ones. Or atleast ones with a better reputation. For company training with school i would suggest Schneider. They also have opportunities for different types of work other than a boring van. For company training hands down it would be Roehl. Better money and good benefits without the super large company crap. They also have other opportunities than just a boring van to haul around. Actually I would probably put Roehl first and find out the schools they use and what it takes to get into them. I would even take a look at SRT (Southern Refrigerated Transport) a smaller company when it comes to company training and longer runs. For Flatbeds probably TMC or Melton and even Maverick if they take students would be a good choice.
Most if not all of the other large companies are simply not worth the phone call.
You don't have a clue do you? Almost any company except maybe Swift pays better than Werner. It doesn't matter because i don't know anyone who would suggest Swift or Werner to newbies except for the desperate.
Again, Thanks Phil for cutting through the bull.

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And I'm not surprised that you label people who disagree with your thinking "steering wheel holders" and attempt to denigrate their abilities.
The truth is that your only driving job (if you actually are a driver and not a Werner recruiter) has been with a training carrier; it's all that you know. Hence, your experience and vision of the industry is extremely limited. I'd suggest that you continue doing what you're good at - providing information about Werner - and limit your theorizing about how the rest of the industry works. Just a suggestion.

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Schneider is the second largest truck-load carrier and has one of the best training programs in the industry. Melton, Roehl, or flatbed companys that'll train you -- sure. They're relatively large entry-level carriers -- the ones I'm talking about. There's dozens and dozens of 500+ truck entry level carriers ("large carriers"). But I'll still maintain: for all the possible benefits one may enjoy as they go smaller, the more narrow and restricted the experience. Not a problem if you already know exactly what you want to do, but a possible edtriment if you plan to try different kinds of driving work.
The "boring van" attitude is an old stereotype put-down, and more seasoned, experienced drivers know better. Flatbed drivers moving to vans have to learn just as much as vans going to flatbed -- not just load securement but dealing with dock situations and a whole different receiving/unload culture and procedure. Van/refer work offers its own unique challenges, no more or less than similiarly routine flatbed work. This "my high school is better than your high school" stuff is imature and speaks volumes about the limited experience and success of those who use it as a put down. 90%+ is pretty much the same thing -- driving and managing your time.
Stuffs -- Successful first-year 48-state van drivers at Werner make 32k-38k their first year (since last year's raise) plus health, dental, vision and a pretty good 401-k and retirement investment plan with a variety of mutuals doing 20%+ a year.... What are you getting paid again?

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Phil-

Fair enough -- but really Phil, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. Good grief -- your "translations" are the most extreme "attempt to denigrate" one will find around here.
But sure -- what I know is my experience of course, and that's why I started this thread about a "case" for starting at a large carrier, one of which I've been employed with for some time now. I have not said it's the best choice for a new driver, just that there's many considerations -- and I think the folks who understand the concept of narrow-vs-wide (etc) get it without you trying to derail the subject with stereotyping a part of the industry you apparently know little about. Same advice back to you -- stick with what you know. How about starting a thread explaining the skill and ethic development advantages of starting with a smaller company?

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I would suggest that also since he is clueless about how companies work and what they do.
I believe i mentioned some thing about newbies having to go to larger companies and suggested one of the better ones. Roehl is also a good choice because they offer Dry Van, FB, and curtainside. More variety with better pay.
Lets use your own personal form of logic. How would you know that, you have never worked or recruited for any of them. Your just assuming and not very wise about it either.
back to Phils suggestion.

[/b]

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You spun your opinion one way, I spun it the other.

I've worked for single truck owners, small fleet owners, small companies, mid-sized companies and large carriers including Schneider and J.B. Hunt. My translation of your outlook is a lot closer to the truth that I've experienced than your description of how a big company works.

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Phil,
It sounds like you did a lot of job switching. I'm not putting you down for that, just suggesting that EVERY company you worked for was insufficient to your expectations as soon as you found what looked like a better offer. You obviously weren't very impressed with any of them -- or there was some problem or another -- since you switched so often. With all due respect to your experience -- and I mean that because you've been there -- I think your anti-large carrier attitude is more a reflection of your dissatisifaction with the industry in general, as evidencd by your job hoping (and the tone of almost everything you post here ) than any specific class of carrier -- the largest being the easiest target.
I'm suggesting new drivers may be better off in the long run by starting with a carrier that does a lot of training and has some expertise working with new drivers.
Many (not all but many) ex-mega carrier trainees who have gone on to other gigs will give credit where it's due. They're glad they don't work there anymore, but appreciate the discipline and skill they had to pull-together to make it out the other end. The survival standard is sometimes brutal, but it enabled them to develop the maturity and discipline to make better choices once they were ready -- vs a smaller mom and pop for example, that may coddle and feed more nice-nice than a balanced, comprensive intro to trucking.
"Truth" is subjective and you're right. You firmly believe in what you believe and I don't wuestion that. You're obviously very intelligent and experienced Phil, and I truly believe you're posting what you think is good advice for newbies based on what you believe to be the "truth". But let's face it -- is there ANY part of the industry you've considered worth working for very long? More power to you for your adventuresome spirit -- if I was younger and more ambitious I might have choosen the same route. But constant dissatisifation and job hoping isn't the only true reality, and probably isn't the path most newbies have in mind.

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I'm glad you agree. Companies like Roehl, Millis (Maybe), SRT, Schneider, TMC, Maverick or Melton would be the best choice if a newbie has to choose larger companies.

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You're avoiding the question Stuffs. Why are you working for a company that pays less than the entry-level carriers and offers no comprehensive benefits for you and your dependents?
I'm probably on your side on this issue. I think job satisfaction -- what fits each of us best -- is more important than chasing top dollar rainbows that never really pan-out.
But since you make such an issue of dis'ing Werner wages, a fair question is :
Why do you work for so much less?
.
To tell you the truth Stuffs -- a lot of it comes from reading the stuff you post as you chase me around trucknet. You're a "type" -- someone who didn't get agood introduction to trucking. That's general and broad I know, but we run into it time after time. Your posts reflect a below-average interest in professional skill. That's in-part how I "know that".
I got my CDL working for a tiny company (C.H.Rowe) that a friend turned me onto. He trained me in two weeks, got my CDL without a proper road test and spent two weeks struggling in California trying to do produce with virtually no training or knowledge. Had I tried to work my way out of that hole, I'd probably sound a lot like you. Instead I quit, went to truck school and joined a competant corporate carrier, and learne what I one needs to know to do this thing properly. I can only imagine the attitude and lack of professional knowlege I'd have today if I hadn't change course.
I assume you got a better start than that -- but probably not by much. You justify your ignorance with a contempt for knowledge, your lack of skill with a contempt for craftsmanship, and your lack of good training with a contempt for large corporate training programs.

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define less?
to base it only on cents per mile means nothing
some .30cpm jobs are a better deal than .50cpm jobs when it's broken down by the hour
is a few more pennies a mile worth destroying your health at some job with crazy working hours?
is killing yourself for a higher gross a year really worth it,when all the extra you make is taxed to death,why work yourself to death to give 1/3 of it to the givernment

werner

all it comes down to is their new crappy job looks good compared to their last really crappy job. Don't mean they actually have a good job,just that it is better than the last one,which doesn't take much considering how freaken low the big carriers are
Only somebody that lead a really miserable exsistance would think the pay for putting up with the living and working conditions offered by OTR is a good deal.