Question:
The purpose of shifting is to keep the rpms matched to road speed when the truck's moving, not to 'brake' it. The brakes slow the truck. The engine just puts a slight drag on your momentum - and if you're heavy, it really has no braking effect at all.
The truck must be in gear when it's moving, since you need engine power to control the truck (Skiffman's right). The only time you should let the truck coast out of gear is if you absolutely know what gear you'll grab next -- like when you're rolling to a stop, or if you're slowing past a gear or two it's just easier to skip them and grab the gear where you expect you speed to stabilize. Otherwise, you shift for every 5mph-10mph change in road speed.
In city traffic, I gently shift to keep my rpms somewhere between 900-1300, depending on if I think I'll be speeding up or slowing down the next few hundred feet. There's a real acquired skilll to smooth shifting and driving in stop and go city traffic. Leaving a good cushion in front of you allows you to drive in and out of that slack to smooth-out your road speed, which can eliminate a lot of shifting and braking.
Rolling to a stop off the freeway:
Downshift to 45mph, keep it in that gear till rpms get down to about 700, then take it out of gear and coast to the stop. You can slide it into your cold-start gear real easy just before you stop, maybe around 1 or 2 mph.
But shifting doesn't brake the truck, except when you engage your jake (or engine retarder yadayadayada for hamburger), which turns your engine into an additional brake on your drive axel. It's noisy, and it puts jerky stress on the drive train when it kicks in and out. The Jake's only purpose is to do some of the work you'd otherwise do with the service brakes, if you're hard braking enough (hills) to potentially over-heat your service brakes. The jake is an ADDITIONAL brake for this specific purpose only.
The point is, except for some downhill jaking, the engine does not brake the truck. So the only point of shifting is to match an appropriate rpm to the road speed you're transitioning to. You may put your foot on it and accelerate, you may not, but you generally want the truck in a gear that'll let you give it some power at any time, even when you could be coasting.
Another point: Always avoid shifting OR braking when the truck's turning. Brake and shift while the truck's straight, then power through the turn whenever possible.
At least....that's the way I do it, I guess..
.
[This message was edited by Shuffler on November 29, 2002 at 02:11.]

Answer:
Out of Control. I totally disagree about taking it out of gear and coasting to a stop, even if it is the last 3 feet. I feel the proper way to come to a stop, any stop, is a combonation of braking and down shifting, and that the only two times that truck should be out of gear is when you are in between gears during a shift or are parked with the brakes set.
I have a name not a number. I am not cheap but I am resonable.
Answer:
"take it out of gear and coast to the stop"
That's some really bad advice. Never take it out of gear and coast. In some states such as Florida you can fail your exam by coasting just a few feet. It's called loss of control, that's a bad thing.
"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of all who threaten it"

Answer:
That's the point. A lot of drivers roll to a stop out of gear from a greater distance/speed than others.
So where do you draw that line? 45mph? 25mph? I don't seriously think anyone shifts every gear down to their cold-start gear when exiting the freeway to a stop sign/light -- there's some coasting before stopping, right?
Schools and testers want to see you shift more than you do in the real world, right? But is it really safe and practical to shift those last few gears, with your foot clutching instead of the braking, while rolling the last little ways to a complete stop?

Answer:
Originally posted by Shuffler:
The truck must be in gear when it's moving, since you need engine power to control the truck (Skiffman's right). The only time you should let the truck coast out of gear is if you absolutely know what gear you'll grab next -- like when you're rolling to a stop,
Rolling to a stop off the freeway:
Downshift to 45mph, keep it in that gear till rpms get down to about 700, then take it out of gear and coast to the stop. You can slide it into your cold-start gear real easy just before you stop, maybe around 1 or 2 mph.
I agree with most all your technics except most drivers are better served to leave the truck in gear ,clutching and braking to a stop.
Shuffler, you are used to having fresh trucks lately,I can tell. Thats OK, you earned them!
But with most "used"company trucks, the frequently used gears usually dont mesh well anymore and the clutch brake is shot.
I sometimes grab my "cold start gear"/dead stop gear in the last few feet of a stop. But its easier to wait to shift into this gear after coming to a complete stop and then do the shift down. If you go to neutral or miss this last second shift and don't have a working clutch brake, you end up forcing it into gear with much grinding to find your gear to roll again. So its much easier to shift after you have come to a complete stop and wait amoment for the gears to stop whirling in the tranny.
And like the rest of us in the "loss of control" chorus say its safer and wiser to NEVER be in neutral while moving at all.
My half million mile tranny shifts great, and I plan on it doing so for another half mil.
So no potentially nasty last second gear grabbing if it can be avoided(not always possible )

Answer:
Skiffman, yea I think you're right. As a rule, it's probably better to skip the little cold-gear trick just before you stop. Better to stop, then get down to the clutch brake and get it in your cold gear (right away, as you pointed out). Becuase if you miss that 1/4 second where you can mesh just before you stop rolling, you have to release the clutch and start over again with the clutch brake. You would have been in gear faster if you just waited till you stop.
Another thing about clutch brakes. Two of my four trucks had a little too much slack in the clutch, I guess. I had them adjust the clutch so there's hardly any slack at the top. Then, when you press all the way into the clutch brake, you've got a little more stroke to reach the clutch brake. Made all the difference in the world -- no more pushing the clutch through the floorboards and waiting...and waiting...and waiting for the clutch brake finally slow the gear enough to mesh.
If your clutch brake is weak, I'd recomment adjusting the clutch to eliminate most of the slack at the top of the stroke. Makes it go down further. May not fix a transmision that's been rode hard and hung-up wet, but at least you're not missing some clutch braking because the pedal stroke doesn't go down far enough.

Answer:
When coming to a stop I always down shift as much as I can and then depress the clutch, leaving it in the last gear I was able to down shift into, and finish the stop. While I am scanning the traffic from both directions I ease it on into the gear I am going to start from.
I have a name not a number. I am not cheap but I am resonable.
Answer:
Great advise guys....
I have used skip shifting eversince 1981, I was in a Mack with a tri-plex. 3 & 5 ...
The old twin sticks it was really important to skip shift.... you had two transmissions to work for your best benefit. It came in really handy and with 15 or 20 or even 25 gears to deal with you had to adjust your speed to the gears you were going to go to...
With todays equipement, they are so userfreindly that if you make a mistake its realatively easy to catch a gear. Unless you are in a fuller 18 or 15 or 13 or super 10. With the air assist. Then if you shift wrong you can get the gears stuck and be free wheeling... That is probably the most hazardous of these tranys.... Especially if you are on a grade...
I trained in the Mountains with Oil Feild workers. Trying to train them to control the equipment with minimal hazards.... Dirt roads and muddy conditions, snow etc....
But you can cause an extremely hazardous situation if you loose a gear in a major metro in rush hour...
Just some thoughts .... Hope it helps...
Safety is No Accident

Answer:
The one thing about the 13 and 18 spd you gotta know where you are in the gear pattern with the 13spd you gotta make sure the splitter is in direct before making range changes downshifting.
I learned on a 13spd so they don't bother me it becomes second nature to flip the spitter button back. Yes you can get the transmission bound up if you forget to flip the splitter button back and you have got the transmission in low range. On some trucks the splitter doesn't react fast from goo in the airline and it take a few seconds for it to change and can trap you in neutral
Most gravel trucks are equiped with 13s so thats what I'am used to
GL

Answer:
"A lot of drivers roll to a stop out of gear from a greater distance/speed than others" Trying to figure out where you get the idea that alot of drivers "roll to a stop out of gear". No one I know does and I certainly wouldn't. It's not safe and newbies taking their test will fail if they do it.
'' there's some coasting before stopping, right? " Not out of gear as stated in the first and second post. The last few feet in gear with the clutch in is a must. Out of gear, never.
"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of all who threaten it"
[This message was edited by Stuffiu on December 01, 2002 at 15:48.]

Answer:
Stuffiu,
Ok, I get it now. You're saying if you're decellerating too quickly to shift, stay in gear with the clutch out as you roll to a stop. You're still "coasting", but the stick's in a gear instead of neutral.
Excellent point -- one I completely overlooked. I guess I do a bit of both, but you're certainly right about keeping it in gear, EXPECIALLY during a test.
I've probably built a bad habit of sometimes moving the stick into neutral during those 5 or 6 seconds when I roll to a complete stop, instead of waiting to move it through neutral when I actually engage the cold-start gear. I guess I do it since releasing the clutch during those few seconds would lug the engine and lurch the truck forward -- like if your foot slipped off the clutch. So taking it out of a gear you can't use anyway, and without enough time (or feet) to engage another gear before you stop, seems lke a practical thing to do with no lack of control control consequences. But it does, in fact, violate the "always keep the truck in gear" rule testers are looking for.
Guess I've got an occasional bad habit. That's what I was looking for. Thanks. I'll fix mine and pass this on to my students. Nice job Stuffiu. Appreciate you sticking it out and making me understand what you were saying. It makes perfect sense now and you're absolutely right.

Answer:
I understand the rational of not being out of gear on decending grades... duh,,,
I understand the rational of decelerating and gearing down.... duh...
However this is one I never have understood...
Why is it bad to shift from a stop in an intersection? Whether you are turning or going straight.... Why is it prefered to remain in the same gear all the way through the intersection...???
I have been in massive intersections all over our Great Country.... In the real world if you delay traffic by holding 1 gear through the entire intersection, (I may be wrong ) you could be sited for impeeding traffic... or create a whole new set of hazards... Right?...
Safety is No Accident

Answer:
I don't hear much about staying in gear through intersections if you're going straight. I shift if I need to. I do it less if I'm turning, for a number of reasons:
I think you need the power and coordination of both hands on the wheel if someone around you blows it. And I know that's one of the things you can fail a test with -- taking one hand off the wheel while making a significent turn.
You're watching several stopped and moving vehicles - some pointed at you - and signals and maybe pedestrians. Shifting steals some of your attention.
On a sharp city turn, the tire friction drags the truck and slows it down fast. Continously powering through the turn makes it a smoother manuever.
You really don't need to change speed much in a city turn anyway until you're strart straigntning out.
Besides, at faster speed turns, say 25-45mph, you always want to brake and shift if necessary while the truck's straight -- before the turn. Then power through the turn, increasing speed as you straighten out.
A lighter, slower version of this works good on snow and ice. The truck has some braking/acceleration control when it's straight. As soon as it's articulated (turning) the weight's moving separetely in slightly different directions. Yanking it around too much can lose traction or roll it over, etc.
When possible, I always avoid shfting or braking much while the truck's bent. I think adjusting your speed/gear before bending the truck, then powering through the turn, is what testers (and other drivers) like to see, because it makes sense.
But just going straight through an intersection, I'm with you. I see no control or safety issue with shifting up from a cold start as you drive through an intersection. I do it all the time, cops watch me do it....not a problem if you're not too aggressive -- nice and gentle, eyes roving up and down each street....

Answer:
First off, understand the main reason you are downshifting to a stop: CONTROLLING YOUR TRUCKS SPEED! You don't use your jake in the city, and if you ride your brakes like you were in a car, you won't have any brakes after a while. Dropping gears in combination with light braking is how you always come to a stop, whether it's at an intersection, offramp, or wherever. It is pure foolishness to EVER put that truck in neutral! Why? Classic answer: YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO GET IT IN GEAR AGAIN!
You are wrong in saying the truck's motor don't slow the truck down! And 700 rpm is idle speed. Sure, you can idle to a stop, but DO IT IN GEAR! Any good driver or trainer will ALWAYS teach you to KEEP THAT TRUCK IN GEAR UNTIL YOU PULL THE BRAKE LEVER. As you are coming to a stop in an intersection, your eyes should be on EVERYTHING: traffic, the stop sign/light, cross traffic, and whats behind you. It is better to roll in behind traffic (IN THE PROPER GEAR) than to come to a complete stop. (IF it is posible. There are certainly times you MUST come to a stop.) As traffic begins to move, you are in gear and moving along. With an 18 speed tranny, I am usually through 9 gears (loaded) from a stop to the other end of the intersection. You use all of your available gears when loaded in city traffic! To skip shift under a load is tearing up your equipment, and that truck is your lifeblood, so don't abuse it.
I have heard of the teachings that you don't shift through an intersection. Some current trainer could explain why. I personally don't agree with that. However, you should NEVER shift across railroad tracks. You could possibly be able to not get it back in gear is the reasoning there. And as far as "shifting makes you take your eyes off the road", well thats just hogwash. If you can't find gears without looking at your shift pattern, you really need more training. Shifting will become second nature, and you will learn how to shift by the sound of your motor. RPM and MPH will also tell you it's time to shift.
But people please listen: NEVER get into the habit of running your truck in neutral AT ANY TIME! Like was said above....OUT OF GEAR, OUT OF CONTROL! And you NEVER want your truck to be out of your control!
Head Warrior, TFBU
On The Mend.....

Answer:
Excellent post,
I agree with 99%. I do a lot of heavy loads 60k-80k, and I NEVER race the engine in city traffic to grab a gear drop. In city driving, shift for acceleration, not braking. Keep your rpms low and power gently. If you need to slow slightly, take your foot off the throttle. If you need to brake, use the brakes. Don't race your engine and drop a gear just to get some reverse torque to slow the truck. Coast in gear and use the brakes. If you keep yor rpms low, you won't notice much engine drag, especially with a heavy load.
ALWAYS stays in gear, except the three seconds you may need to shift. I think most of us usually shift faster than that, but three seconds should be plenty of time to make a smooth gear change -- the only time the stick isn't planted in a gear.
Three seconds is where testers draw the line, including three seconds with the clutch out rolling to a complete and certain stop at a stop sign in gear. Make sure you're in a low enough gear so you won't lug the engine before you start your three second roll with the clutch out. At a red light, you may want to slow your approach and shift all the way down to your lowest gear, one at a time, to avoid having to stop bfore the light goes green.
Except for railroad tracks (or scales) you shift when you're speeding up or slowing down.
You got three seconds max for each shift. Other than that, you better have the yellow button pulled if it's out of gear.
But I disagree about engine braking. You only jake to protect your service brakes from overheating. Other than that, if you need to slow the truck, use the service brakes.
I tried to say shifting takes your attention from the road in a tight city turn, and I'll stand by that. But it's not because you're looking at your pattern, but because you're rolling out of gear, adjusting engine speed, both feet busy, while you whip around with sometimes a couple feet clearance in a mine field of potential hazards. This is not a good time to take one hand off the wheel and put the truck in neutral while you fish for a gear mesh -- at least in a test. No one's going to die from starvation because it takes you an extra couple seconds to clear a turn in city traffic. Hopefully, they just die from boredom. So what. Use the slower speed to turn a tighter corner and get it straight quickly, then shift and accelerate till your heart's content -- after you've safely completed the turn in gear with both hands on the wheel. Start the turn in a second or third gear so you have some rpms left for acceleration as you straighten out.
Every time you shift, you're out of control, till you get it back in gear, so avoid unnecessary shifting. Keep your rpms low, coasting all the way down to idle sometimes, just don't ask for much power down there. Don't drop a gear till you're sure you may need the power.
Maybe you could shift more in turns with a smaller truck, a day cab, a straight truck. But with a long-wheel based conventional and a fifty three in a tight city turn in traffic, you're executing a manuever where there's little room for error, distraction, or loss of control during shifts.
.
[This message was edited by Shuffler on December 03, 2002 at 02:45.]